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Letters to the Editors
Send a letter to the editors
December 2002
By editors at Edmunds.com
Date Posted 01-02-2003
Subject: Internet Buying
From: Keith
I enjoyed the first part of your article and wanted to share my experience that
perhaps you'll be addressing in the second part.
I've found the most challenging part in the Internet buying experience is addressing
the traditional need of "kicking the tires" at some point in the decision-making
process.
Addressing this need isn't so critical if you're buying a model that you're currently
familiar with (friends/family have it, etc). Unfortunately, when faced with the
task of learning about new models or buying into a segment that's new to you,
the age-old "dance with the car lot salesperson" inevitably appears. I don't know
about you but I don't dance well, and it boils down to my desire to avoid the
pressure tactics and maintain my integrity through the buying process.
Recently (Feb.-March '02) I began my Internet research for a new car for my mother
(aging gracefully and conservative, but wanted a car that kicks butt driving the
curves on Route 1 to Mendocino). Knowing her quirky tastes a bit, I narrowed choices
down to four manufacturers (Nissan, Lexus, Audi, Inifiniti) to "check out" before
purchasing. In three of the dealer choices, there was an "Internet" option available
directly or indirectly (i.e. AAA, etc).
As I approached each lot, I had the choice to tell them the truth ("I'm researching
cars for my mother, but I want to buy on the Internet") or attempt a different
lead ("I'm interested in buying this car and I'd be happy to buy it from you").
I mentioned the Internet in two dealers. At one dealer, I was dismissed pretty
rapidly when I mentioned looking before buying on-line with "OK, well feel free
to look around" with no help to get a test drive ("everyone has gone to lunch
and I have to stay here"). At another dealer with an Internet presence I was still
treated with reluctance and had to do a search to seek out the sales manager in
order to get a test drive. In the other two dealers, I played a more "traditional"
game.
Surprisingly for me, my experience with one of the "traditional" salespeople was
ultimately the one that resulted in my purchase of a new (and at that time difficult
to find) Infiniti G35. After my mother drove and decided on the Infiniti, I requested
quotes and a specific model/color/trim combination from surrounding dealers (using
Edmunds' "request a quote").
Out of the three on-line dealers I contacted I received the following feedback:
1) No response — period. 2) The model/trim combination wasn't available for
6-8 weeks. 3) The model could be found in about 2 weeks with a quoted price $200
below sticker (and TMV at that time).
What made the difference? Ultimately the care of my "car lot" salesperson. He
knew full well the going Internet (Including Edmunds TMV) prices for the car and
indicated up front his desire to be "as competitive as possible." He supported
me knowing full well that I'd be seeking prices and availability for a specific
model from around the Bay Area. He smirked a bit when I mentioned bringing back
my mother, but when I did, he didn't apply any more pressure to her than he did
to my initial visit. He found the specific car I wanted faster (available in three
days) and even beat the best Internet price ($400 below TMV/sticker including
AAA discount, etc).
I went in to the process thinking and planning to buy on-line and I will continue
to do so for my next vehicle. What the Internet dealers can do to insure my business
is to address the following:
- "Define the Dance steps": Where can I go to drive the car without the hassle?
What should I say?
- "Responsiveness": The Internet is about speed of information. Response to
quote requests HAVE to be fast.
- "Accuracy": Price may be the biggest concern, but accuracy of availability
and delivery are equally important.
If these issues are addressed, then I'll be a complete Internet buyer in the future.
I'm interested in what your contacts in both the Internet and traditional sales
models are doing to address the issues above. Will you be touching on any of these
issues in the second installment?
It's tricky making generalizations about Internet car shopping since it is
quickly evolving and is being adapted differently at each dealership. However,
if you make your initial contact through the Internet department you have sent
them notice that you know about on-line pricing. You have shown you have the ability
to get competitive pricing and can spot the lowest price when you see it. Furthermore,
you can also request a test drive through the Internet department salesperson
— or have them arrange a no-pressure test drive with one of the car lot salespeople.
Internet car shopping isn't perfect yet, but it has offered a wonderful alternative
to consumers interested in a more humane approach to getting a new car. —
Ed.
Subject: Prices
From: John
I don't know if you can answer questions or not, but I thought I'd try.
We are looking for a used Honda Civic LX sedan from a dealer. I checked your retail
prices versus Kelley Blue Book on the Net and there are big differences.
| Edmunds |
Kelley |
| '98 $9,003 |
'98 $10,470 |
| '99 $10,053 |
'99 $11,835 |
| '00 $11,365 |
'00 $13,440 |
I added the cost of an automatic transmission on the Edmunds prices because you
price the car with a manual, even though, at least with the new LX I think it
comes with an automatic.
If you could clarify this for me I would appreciate it. I'm finding the Internet
way a good one for finding out and empowering the buyer/consumer.
Thanks.
It's important to keep in mind that Kelley's figures are "asking prices"
while Edmunds.com provides transaction prices. In other words, Kelley starts
higher with the idea that a buyer will probably bargain the dealer down somewhat.
Therefore, by starting higher, the transaction price will be higher. On Edmunds.com,
we don't provide "wiggle room" — we price the cars according to what our
market information has shown us. — Ed.
Subject: SUV Hatred
From: Sami
Mr. Brauer's article about SUVs and the people who hate them is reasonably balanced.
And I agree that SUVs will not go away.
If we try to imagine the extreme case of cars being defined by their utility to
the people, we could try to picture what the auto industry would look like if
Chairman Mao was in charge of all auto production. There might well be only two
vehicles, a small hatchback for families (remember, only one child per family)
and a small van for the collective farms. Paint color would always be Revolutionary
Red, not only to show one's solidarity with the revolutionary zeal of the people,
but also because it is more visible on a foggy day, reducing crashes.
When I think about cars in America, many of the most popular vehicles serve personal
preference and not practical needs. What we don't have in the country is a rational
political process to collectively determine how much excess is too much. Mr. Brauer
is correct to point out that half-baked rationales to hate one group of vehicles
(SUVs in this case) do not help the public discussion at all.
Thanks for the interesting articles that you continue to post on Edmunds.
Subject: Calculate Your Own Lease Payment
From: Sherman
I have a question regarding the article by Philip Reed dated 9-30-02. My payment
figure was about 50 dollars lower than my actual 3-year lease payment on a Honda
Pilot. What your steps leave out is the rent charge that's on the form. In my
case 4,421 dollars. This charge was also on the 2000 Ford Explorer that I leased
three years ago. I would appreciate your reply.
The article is meant to give you an estimate of what your lease payment could
be. The actual lease payment will vary based on a number of factors, including
what the dealership will sell the car for. The rent charge you mention is the
interest on the lease, which is described in the article you refer to. However,
since that article was written, we have introduced a lease
calculator which is very accurate. If you choose a car, it will input the
residual value, the interest rate and True Market Value price for the car and
calculate your lease payment. Try it and see! — Ed.
Subject: Devaluing Repaired Cars Upon Trade-In
From: Frank
Sad to say my loved ones were told by a dealership, when they went to trade in
their 2001 Montana, that the worth of the trade-in would normally include a deduction
for the amount of the cost to repair previous accident damage, which was $8,800.
I can understand people being reluctant to buy a car that has been in an accident,
but it appears to me that to automatically deduct the amount of the accident might
represent this kind of thinking:
- Anyone buying this car would be so astute as to ask for the car to be reduced
in value by the damage amount, because they know the dealer was that astute
and they don't want to pay more for the car than they should, right —
NOT!
- The repairs were so shabbily done, that the person buying the car would
want to take out a loan for enough money so that they could put $8,800 aside
for the eventuality that the repairs would have to be done over again, at
a cost of at least $8,800 — NOT!
- The car dealership has the opportunity, upon trade-in, to deduct a certain
amount for the car having previous damage. Not knowing how much they can sell
the car for, but suspecting they don't have to sell the car for $8,800 less
than book, they tell the client that it is SOP to deduct the damage repair
cost at trade-in. The client buys the story, the dealer sells the car for
whatever they can, and if they sell it without having to reduce the price
by $8,800, they call the previous owner to tell them the good news and send
the rebate in the mail — NOT!
- The dealer is, at best, doing a CYA thing, at worst, acting unscrupulously
— BINGO!
Please tell me all you know about this issue.
A vehicle with accident damage is always worth less than one with a clean history.
The term you will often hear bandied about is a "no stories" car, meaning you
don't have to give any explanations about a car's past (accident damage, high
mileage, worn interior) because the car has lived such a quiet, easy life that
there are "no stories" to tell. When there are stories, the actual drop in value
is anyone's guess, but this dealer's system seems a bit extreme (in favor of the
dealer, of course). — Ed.
Subject: Kudos
From: Debbie
I am in the process of looking for an SUV and I just wanted you to know that your
site has been the most informative, interesting and helpful one I've come across.
I have never written a feedback response to any site that I have ever visited,
but I was so impressed by yours that I wanted to let you know how much I appreciated
it. People are always ready to complain while letting deserving compliments go
by, and this was my way of thanking you for providing me, someone who isn't "car
friendly" learn as much as possible before making the second largest purchase,
after a house, that I'll ever make.
Thanks again for all of your hard work and for providing a free site for people
like me to learn. Keep up the good work.
Subject: Bias In Comparisons
From: Sheth
I am starting to wonder if your articles and comparisons are really written with
the reader in mind. While it is unrealistic to expect your staffers to be completely
unbiased, it is realistic for them to rate cars based on factors that readers
really care about. The readers don't really care about your personal preferences;
they are concerned about which cars deliver the best performance, style and value
for the money. As your much criticized entry-level lux sedan comparo illustrates,
your on-line publication is becoming another Car and Driver. I think people
like coming to your site because it's updated frequently, it's free and it (supposedly)
offers an alternative to those predictable and performance-biased monthly magazines.
Over the last few years it seems you have morphed into just another predictable
auto mag that loves BMWs, hates anything designed in America and cares little
about price. Auto mags are written for enthusiasts so we expect them to disregard
cars that ride comfortably and are affordable to middle-class workers while praising
high-priced performance cars that few can afford to own and insure. I thought
your publication was supposed to benefit the average new car consumer who is looking
for solid advice? If your editors make their car-buying decisions based on laser
sharp steering, the amount of wood grain in the interior, track times and "BMW"
badges on the hood that is their prerogative, but they shouldn't impose their
impractical values on readers. After all, most readers don't have unlimited budgets
or access to race courses, and value is an important factor. I am not an Infiniti
fan by any means but you must pay credit when it is due. There is no way a car
that is cheaper, roomier, just as fast and probably more reliable than a 330 should
finish anywhere besides first place. Then again, we all know the Edmunds rule
of thumb; "If it ain't BMW (or VW or Honda), it ain't winning the comparison test."
If you are going to keep this up maybe you should change your name to Car and
Driver On-line!
A couple of points need to be made here:
- BMW's are comfortable and provide great ride quality. They do this while
also supplying near exotic-car levels of steering feedback and, in the case
of the M-badged cars, handling capability. That's why we like them so much.
- Since 1997 BMW 3 Series sales have doubled, and the starting prices for
one is $27,800, which is close to the average new-car price, making it a vehicle
that pertains to middle-class America.
- If you don't care about our personal choices, rescore the tests without
that factor. We break out the final
scoring of our comparison tests for just that reason.
- In 2002 we held an Entry-Level
Luxury Sedan comparison test in which the BMW 330i got beat by the Acura
TL because of the Acura's superior VALUE. In that test the BMW was soundly
trouncing the Acura…until we factored in price (like we do in every test)
and the Acura nudged ahead. You'll also note that the IS300 took third in
that test, again largely due to its high VALUE factor.
- The Car and Driver On-line domain name is already taken (though how well
it's being utilized is certainly up for debate). — Ed.
Subject: BMW Racism
From: Sen
Don't you find it somewhat sad that you have no problems saying you are blatantly
biased toward BMW? Why not just call yourselves "Automotive Racists" and end it
there? At least you will be putting people out of their misery by not having them
go to your Web site.
How can I get on the BMW payroll? I feel sorry for Infiniti, because they have
a winning product in the G35, but your underhanded Internet site sees profits
before the truth. Even Car and Driver has seen the light and has now put
it on their Top-10 list knocking off the 5 Series, A4 and S2000.
Let me guess, you are all just a bunch of California kids who own cars only worth
a few grand, but when you ride or drive in a BMW it strokes your egos? Why else
would you have two BMWs in your long-term test fleet? Why not just rent out a
BMW dealership and do a long-term test on every single model that they test. Forget
everything else!
To be honest, I enjoy your Web site, because in almost every review you do on
any car, you compare the car to a BMW 3 Series. You automotive racists make for
a good laugh and a good joke around all the major Internet forums!
You may not have noticed that we picked the Nissan 350Z (shares its platform
with the G35) as our Most
Significant Vehicle of the Year, and the G35 Coupe as our honorable mention
in the Most Wanted Coupe
under $35,000 — Ed.
Subject: Dealer Holdbacks
From: Jack
Are dealer holdbacks (a percentage of the cost of a vehicle that is paid by the
manufacturers to the dealer) still in effect? I looked through the info on your
site, but could not find anything pertaining to holdbacks. Thanks in advance.
Yes, holdbacks are very much in effect. They are listed under the "Advice"
section at this link: http://www.edmunds.com/advice/incentives/holdback/index.html.
— Ed.
Subject: Thanks
From: Ed
It is a pleasure to be able to research information about used automobiles at
your Web site. You provide lots of information, address issues that are of importance
to the consumer and give us working figures to use as a starting point for negotiating.
You seem to possess no bias in evaluating the car, but undoubtedly internally
there is a lot of screaming and hollering going on about who rated what and why!
So I thank you for helping make the marketplace a little less murky.
Subject: Advertising Fees
From: James
I have used your information for many years, and have saved hundreds of dollars
each time I buy a car.
I have a question regarding the advertising fees that the dealership pays to the
manufacturer: I recently priced a 2003 Honda Civic four-door sedan, auto, without
side airbags. From your Web site:
Invoice = $16,782
MSRP = $18,320
TMV = $17,109
The dealership told me that they are required to pay advertising fees on each
vehicle they have on the lot, therefore the true dealer cost is greater than $16,782.
On your Web site, you acknowledge the existence of the ad fees, but it is not
clear if those ad fees are already included in the invoice ($16,782 for this Honda
Civic), or if they are in addition to the invoice.
Does the invoice price from your Web site include the ad fees, or should I add
them to the invoice to get the true dealer cost?
Thank you!
Advertising fees are regional and, as such, are not reflected in our invoice
prices. However, they are taken into account in our TMV price since this is an
average of what other consumers in your area are paying. The true dealer cost
will probably be beyond the ability of a consumer to calculate since it is based
on holdbacks, ad fees and dealer rebates that are kept secret. Therefore, we recommend
using TMV as a guide rather than the invoice pricing. — Ed.
Subject: Honda Pilot Road Test
From: Eric
The road test article about the Honda Pilot was a very in depth and overall well
written piece of work, but one point caught my eye and infuriated me. The author
commented that: "The only one we haven't mentioned thus far is the standard side
airbags for front occupants, though the sport-ute's five-star side-impact crash
test scores suggest that it doesn't require extras like full-length head curtain
airbags. Still, a stability control system would be a worthwhile addition, at
least as an option." The author has obviously no idea about side impaction protection
to comment that an SUV does not need full length curtains. First off during a
NHTSA side impact crash test, all cars, trucks and SUVS are struck by a barrier
roughly the size and height of a Ford Taurus.
Thus, the impact for a regular car will be at its doors whereas the barrier will
strike an SUV below the doors (closer to the wheels than the window.) EVERY SUV
should be able to get five stars because of how little impact is actually occurring.
A side curtain system would be vital in the event of the rollover to cushion head
contact with the window or the concrete and keep the passengers' heads inside
the vehicle. The author seemed to leave out several other scenarios where a side
curtain would come in handy like if the SUV was wrapped around a pole. Finally
the author thought that a stability control system should at least be an "option."
In this day in age, no car should not have some form of traction control AND SUVs
should all have a form of rollover protection like in the new Volvo XC90. The
author never mentioned that all Volvos come with side impact airbags, side curtains,
whiplash protection, traction control and in the XC90 there is reinforced boron
steel and a gyroscopic rollover sensor. Edmunds in general should look at the
overall safety perspective rather than recommend a vehicle with no concern for
rollovers because accidents occur in infinite form.
Thank you for your time and sorry for the rambling.
The author's statement should have read "the sport-ute's five-star side-impact
crash test scores suggest that it doesn't require extras like full-length head
curtain airbags to achieve the highest crash-protection scores from the
NHTSA." She was not trying to suggest how important head curtain airbags
are in the real world, only how important they are in achieving top scores from
the NHTSA (a situation, by the way, that is likely to change when the NHTSA begins
dynamic rollover testing, and head curtain airbags are subjected to standardized
testing much like front and side airbags are today). — Ed.
Subject: Honda Pilot Road Test
From: Mr. Sterling
Please, please refrain from calling the head restraints "head rests." They are
not there for your head to rest on. They are there to prevent whiplash and neck
injury. Calling them head rests is very misleading and unprofessional.
Subject: Most Wanted
From: Kiscaden
You people are bound and determined to put America out of business, aren't you?
I hope yours is the first job to go.
Nope, but we are bound and determined not to let auto manufacturers off the
hook when they produce inferior products. Stacking the deck in one competitor's
favor simply because you prefer their country of origin is about as UN-American
as it gets. We've always believed that America is a place where the best get the
gold and everyone else has to try harder if they want it. — Ed.
Subject: Most Wanted Cars
From: Richard
Move to Europe!
One of our editors already did, but Brent's flat in London doesn't have enough
room for the rest of us. — Ed.
Subject: Most Wanteds
From: C. Doddridge
Will American cars ever be on this bandwagon?
Subject: Most Wanted
From: David
I just read the aforementioned list. 26 out of 30 are foreign (of course, you
know that). It looks like most of you would rather not live in the United States,
what with our antiquated technology and all. I know there must be some decent
American vehicles, the Mustang is one that comes to mind. It's no wonder I don't
pay any attention to reviewers of anything. I just stumbled across this article
on-line and figured I'd check it out. I'm kind of sorry I did. Maybe you folks
should move your operation to Europe, Japan or Korea. Thanks for listening.
No, we like living in the same country where so many of our Most Wanted winners
are built. You know, like the Civic, the Odyssey, the Pilot, the X5, the Sequoia
and the Tribute (not to mention the Corvette, Dakota and Sierra). All built here
in the good ol' U.S. of A.! — Ed.
Subject: Most Wanted
From: Bridget and Tim
Seems to me you should all apply for jobs and live in Japan.
Subject: Most Wanted
From: R.N.
I knew when I saw your picks, without your telling me, what your ages were and
that you would eat Thai pizza. Keep on buying foreign cars and then wonder why
the economy is going to hell. You will still be wondering when you lose your jobs
and you still won't get it. I know you will all laugh when you read this and say,
"Yep, it's another one of those nuts out there." You see, all the people in your
age group have always had everything and life has been good. Hope you guys can
eat McDonald's in your foreign cars, while you're out looking for jobs and wondering
what happened.
Yep, it's… — Ed.
Subject: Be American Buy American
From: Lazybones48910
WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE, EDMUNDS. ALL YOU'RE DOING IS PROMOTING THE FOREIGN
CAR MARKET. I HAVE OWNED FOREIGN CARS AND THEY ARE NOT VERY GOOD AT ALL AND COST
MORE TO HAVE REPAIRED, THEY RUST OUT FASTER TOO. I WILL BUY AMERICAN NO MATTER
HOW MUCH YOU BOZOS PROMOTE JAPANESE JUNK.
Subject: Most Wanted
From: Brian
I am very disappointed that you always fail to choose domestic cars. Out of all
the cars listed in your top "30" there are a handful of American cars. I find
it very hard to believe that a majority of Americans would choose little to no
domestic cars. What about the new Hummer H2, Ford Thunderbird, Ford Focus? It
seems to me that these cars are the "Most Wanted" since it is nearly impossible
to find these cars, or they fly out the showroom as soon as they get in. With
the economy the way it is now it seems that you would try to promote things that
would help us and not others.
Promoting the best cars on the market, and forcing the other automakers to
improve their quality and design to compete, is the best thing for us. It's called
capitalism and the free market. By the way, if you look at last year's Consumer's
Most Wanted, where you pick the winners, not us, you'll note that the only
categories won by domestic manufacturers were the Full Size Van and Large Crew
Cab Pickup. These were also the only two categories with no foreign offerings. — Ed.
Subject: Most Wanted
From: Victoria and Henry
I loved your write-up about how you picked the cars on the Most Wanted List, and
I enjoyed reading it so much, that I laughed and invited my husband in here so
I could read it to him. He liked it too, especially the part about passion. The
reason it really hit us is because we are currently in search of a vehicle to
replace our '88 Toyota Camry Station Wagon that has over 190,000 miles and which
has been a steady, dependable, reliable, functional, reasonable car to drive.
We are the second owner and bought it when it had 103,000 miles on it. It is still
running great. But we know that somewhere down the road it's going to need some
major $$$ put into it and we think maybe we should put those $$$ in a newer vehicle
since we drive from southeastern Arizona where we currently live, up to Washington
State along the Columbia River, where there are mountains and streams and boat
harbors awaiting discovery. Thanks for your good writing.
Subject: Most Wanted
From: Robert
Your list is totally bogus and worthless. How dare you not even place such icons
as the Lincoln Navigator, Cadillac Escalade, Ford Expedition and Tahoe on your
list. May I remind you that the Expedition is the world's top selling full-size
SUV, so apparently Ford must be doing something right. It appears that you have
been paid off by Japanese auto companies.
No respect for you at all.
Subject: Most Wanted
From: Gary
Unfortunately I believe your choices were made by "pretty people" who think with
only snob appeal (Thai chicken pizza) ideals. Since everyone has their own opinions,
I guess I'd stack my Lincoln Navigator, Jaguar X-Type, Corvette, Ford 150 Harley-Davidson
Edition and F-250 V10 4x4 EXT Cab against any of your selections anytime.
The Corvette was
one of our selections. — Ed.
Subject: Most Wanted
From: W. Bruce
I liked your list. I hope you all lose your jobs like millions of Americans are
losing theirs from idiots like you telling them to buy imported products. I purchased
a 2002 GMC van and I have had no problems with it and I love it. But most of all
I was glad to buy something made in Missouri. I think you should come up with
a nice do-it-yourself project for the unemployed. You could make a plan to convert
Hyundais into shelters for the people that have lost their jobs to imports. How
do you jerks sleep at night knowing that you are helping to ruin America? Audi
never made a decent car in their whole history. Subaru used to brag about how
many of their cars are still on the road, when is the last time you saw a Subaru
Brat? They sold millions of them. On the other hand AMC stopped making the 4WD
Eagle over 10 years ago and hardly a day goes by when I don't see one. Why don't
you say that imported cars are good for a year or two? Hyundai and Kia are the
worst cars on the road. They all burn oil after 60,000 miles. Where are you children
going to work when all industry is gone in the USA? Congratulations, you are helping
Bin Laden destroy the USA.
(sigh) All right, I'm out of energy on this topic, but I'm betting there are
some Audi, BMW, Honda, Hyundai, Kia and Subaru people out there who would care
to respond. Remember that's editor@edmunds.com
and we post a new "Letters to the Editors" every month. It's either that or you
can continue to let people compare your cars to homeless shelters, junk and (perhaps
worst of all) AMC Eagles. — Ed.
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